Pernille Brun: 0:04

Welcome to Work in Progress, a podcast series where I pick the brain of thought leaders within the field of people and culture. My name is Pernille Brom and in these talks we explore the latest trends shaping the future of work and the evolving landscape of modern organizations. In today's episode, I'm speaking with Camilla Mies, who is Group Chief People Officer at Leman. So, camilla, welcome. Thank you so much. We are going to talk about reinventing. I'm inclined not to say HR at all. Yes, because we have decided that today we're going to talk about how we can ditch HR and call it people in culture instead, and in fact, that's what you have done, right. So I would love to start out by you introducing yourself and hearing a little bit more about your thoughts and how come you are no longer calling it HR, but rather people in culture. And where did you end where you are today?

Camilla Miehs: 1:03

Yeah, Many questions. So my name is Camilla Miehs. I currently work at Leman, which is a very old logistic company, global logistic company. Very long story, super short. I worked in HR slash, people and culture for 20 years. I always say the first 10 years was very much HR and then from there, my journey, if I'm allowed to use that word, kind of started with moving away from HR and trying to figure out what the new path was. And, of course, renaming. It is just one of the things and I think it's just. I feel very inclined to stress that. I find that it's very popular these days to rename HR, people and culture or similar. However, for me, it's adamant to say that it's not just a new name, it's new content and ways of working as well. So I'm I definitely agree with you. Uh, the the word HR and everything it stands for traditionally is something I definitely want to, you know, remove myself from.

Pernille Brun: 2:25

Yes, so that removal or distance came out of something I could assume. What was that?

Camilla Miehs: 2:40

Well, it came out of having worked in the first 10 years expanding and um, and I did classical hr. I I wasn't trained by education in hr, so I had to learn everything. Uh, as I, you know, started my my first job uh, building on my own to start with, and um. So, and I, I educated myself with trying to read all the books that you're supposed to read and obviously reaching out to people who are far more experienced and further along in their career in HR and asking them what does good look like, what am I supposed to do, and getting a lot of good advice. And then, during that time, I also did an mba, which was not specifically in hr, because I wanted to do a general one, to have a broader business understanding. But I did everything right by every, all the books that I read, yeah, so and and, and.

Camilla Miehs: 3:41

I got a feeling that, um, I wasn't in the right place and I think for me I didn't have a language for it at the time, so for me it was more feeling out of place and feeling what we did didn't make sense to me. And the conflict for me was that every time I looked around and asked the right people and read the right books, I got confirmed that what we were doing was the right thing. And so I kept asking so why is it that I feel so misaligned or out of place, or this loss of meaning in what I'm actually doing?

Camilla Miehs: 4:20

yeah, so there was a mismatch between your inner sense of meaningfulness with what you did through your job, but also what other people told you that you know and applauded you for maybe doing and implementing and installing as part of being in the HR function yes, exactly, and I and I also feel I mean it was a very people-focused organization and we were very focused on well-being and just people first and culture, and so there was all the elements was actually there, but at the same time, I also felt that I didn't really understand why what we were doing wasn't received very positive and there was a lot of resistance towards what we were doing.

Pernille Brun: 5:13

What were you experiencing?

Camilla Miehs: 5:14

What kind?

Pernille Brun: 5:14

of resistance.

Camilla Miehs: 5:16

Well, I remember very I mean, there were several things, but I think one of the very clear ones was I read the Leadership Pipeline, which I think a lot of of that was one of the books you're supposed to read and carry like a Bible, at least back then. And and, of course, implementing like, okay, what are actually the different levels? And in that was also a whole idea of performance standards. So, which levels? How do you measure performance and KPIs and all of that regime of and ways of thinking. And so now we came out and say, okay, we have leaders on these levels, these are the roles and how they are different, and also these are the KPIs and performance. And now we have to measure.

Camilla Miehs: 6:01

You and you know know both in terms of 360 feedback evaluations and more hardcore targets customer service and satisfaction. You know pnl revenue, all the classic things as well. But um, and and I just I found that it didn't. I struggle with seeing that it had positive output, 360 evaluations, for example I found that we were spending too much time on, you know, picking people up and piecing them back together, especially the people who had received maybe quite tough feedback, and I thought that was like not the purpose? It wasn't. The purpose wasn't kind of to, you know, destroy their uh sense of worse and no, no motivation and, and you know, just yeah it.

Camilla Miehs: 6:59

there was just so many things that I felt wasn't again to use like business lingo. You know, where is the return on investment? What we're doing, whether that is monetary or something else I think I struggle with really seeing the output and I think, for me later on, realizing that a lot of what HR is doing is more input focused. You're supposed to do all of these things because it's the right thing to do, supposed to do all of these things because it's the right thing to do and maybe for legal compliance matters, or because someone has made it a best practice at some point, but I really struggle with seeing what value we were adding to the business. Yeah, and I think that was the sense I was feeling inside, or that that misalignment, yeah so.

Pernille Brun: 7:43

so that, was it also feedback you got from the organization? So one thing was what you saw that this had an effect that you didn't intend it to have. But was it also feedback you got from managers or employees themselves?

Camilla Miehs: 7:59

Yes, what did people say? I mean, again, this is obviously 15 years ago, so at that point we also did the annual appraisals and you know, everyone had to fill out forms and upload and document and sign once a year. It took out tremendous effort and resources, which is just away from, you know, core business. And again it was. You know we could tick the box and say everyone had that. You know we are compliant and everything, but we didn't really know anything about the quality of these conversations. Had they what? What were they actually bringing?

Camilla Miehs: 8:35

Yeah, um, you know, are people more engaged? Do we see more growth and development? I mean, it was really really hard. And again it was this approach to a one-size-fits-all, where we, you know, design something. And then we mean it was really really hard, and again it was this approach to a one size fits all, where we, you know, design something and then we roll it out regardless of how you are successful or unsuccessful as a leader or, you know, there wasn't, context wasn't important. It was just like everyone has to follow an annual wheel of different stuff and it doesn't matter if you're already really good at doing some of these things in your own way because you still have to do it.

Camilla Miehs: 9:07

You still have to do this and um, we did an annual, which I know a lot of companies still do, the annual satisfaction survey, which again was such a cumbersome. So obviously each year there was a discussion around questions are we still bringing these questions and aligning, or all of that. And then the survey rolled out and you know you had to get participation and engagement and feedback and then managers were left. I mean, we had tons of work in our team just to process all of that and then managers were left with these huge reports and had to do action plans and team as it felt like two full-time months of this going on yeah on top of everything else, obviously, and you could just see people struggling with finding value in it and you know it was heavy.

Camilla Miehs: 9:57

It was like is it supposed to be this difficult, you know, to get us to where we want to go? Yes, so all of these classical things that are usually in the annual HR wheel, that a lot of HR teams and we did as well at that time are working with, it was just a lot of and I think, bonuses In those years, in those first 10 years, I made countless of different bonuses built on different principles, and they always seem to end up in the same place, regardless of how simple or detailed or how much we, you know, redesigned them, and it was. They were demotivating people more than they were motivating them. They were. We spent tons of time discussing the actual targets, discussing the actual results, and people were like but that's not my responsibility and this is handled.

Camilla Miehs: 10:52

I mean, there was just so much around that, again, that was not about what we were here to do, which is around making people you know, our colleagues, our customers, you know add value in some shape and form, and it just seemed like we were spending way more time on internal discussions and moving things back and forth and very little could we also say like these bonus systems are actually driving the behavior that we want, and often we actually also saw people that it drived. You know, you know, not a very positive behavior, because you would now start to focus on narrow targets instead of actually trusting people to be like you know, I know what the right thing is to do, so navigate towards what is the right thing to do instead of what is the target that you are being measured on.

Pernille Brun: 11:46

Exactly, and I almost feel the burden listening to your story. So it's all your experience. It's almost like I get this heaviness in my own body listening to your experiences and then also lose hope. A little bit right, because we are here to do good and we don't intend to install any of these programs or incentives to punish people or to make them do more work or meaningless work. So we would rather actually add value. And it feels like almost you also lost your sense of connection to your field or to what you wanted to bring to the table. So what, what did you? How did you end up where you are now? So what? What was the middle place? Yeah, then went to to.

Camilla Miehs: 12:34

I think there were like two major situation that really stand out for me today. One was that, uh, after six and sushi, I joined a, which is architecture, and, for a very brief moment, the manager there that hired me. Unfortunately, she left six months later, but she was the first one, and this is around the time that Frida Glello's Reinventing Organization came out, and I've never heard about this.

Camilla Miehs: 13:03

I was still in the very classical bookshelf of learning yeah, exactly and and and she was the first one who introduced me to that book and she was the first one who started pointing also in the way she was working in the organization, towards different way of thinking, leadership and responsibility and team structure, and and it made sense in an organization that was project-based, where people moved around. So it was a. It was a challenge in itself, like who is going to hire and fire and who's going to take care of you know, your well-being and your growth opportunities? Who's going to have that career talk with you if you don't really sit in a team with the same manager? But but you're moving around. So the pure structure of that organization made it. You know, we had to rethink certain things and for the first time ever I realized everything we've ever been taught in business and in HR is dependent on leadership hierarchies, on leadership hierarchies yeah, and if that is not in a traditional pyramid shape and very static, what?

Camilla Miehs: 14:10

everything falls apart, all theories falls apart, and and so that was the first time I started to look into different things and realizing ah, it might not be me, you know feeling, yeah, feeling out of place with my own discipline. It actually actually might be that this discipline is wrong and the way we are working is outdated and we need to. You know educate ourselves in either broader sense or at least look to more. You know diverse ways of actually building organizations and doing HR.

Camilla Miehs: 14:43

I mean, we renamed at big. We renamed from hr to people and culture. I remember the discussion very clearly. It was someone in my team who came up with the suggestion to rename it to. Well, we just called it people, not, not culture.

Camilla Miehs: 14:56

And I remember being like I don't care whether it's one or the other, it's fine. You know, whatever the majority feels strongest about, I will go with that because in that that part, it's the same that we're doing. I mean, the content of the bottle is the same. So whether we call it one or the other, I didn't have strong feelings for it at that time. And then when I joined the world of tech, at that point I became more clear that what I was doing was we have to rethink, just name. What I learned in those years was and I don't know if I always had that or not but I definitely have a huge allergy for bureaucracy and red tape and process for the sake of process. I hate doing work that doesn't feel like it contributes to anything meaningful or something that we just agreed on Other than upholding their bureaucracy and hierarchy in itself.

Camilla Miehs: 15:54

Exactly so, a huge allergy, and I used very much that allergy in terms of saying, okay, now we don't have anything, but as a company grows, we tend to put more and more of these processes and control mechanisms and levels and hierarchies and all of this red tape.

Pernille Brun: 16:16

In place? Yes, and why do you think that is? Why do we have a tendency to do that Other than what's in the textbooks? And it says that we have to? Yeah, so I think there are two things. I think one thing is we don't know anything else. Do we have a tendency to do that other than what's in the textbooks?

Camilla Miehs: 16:24

and it says that we have to. Yeah, so I think there are two things. I think one thing is we don't know anything else. So you're supposed to grow this way and you're supposed to. You know, if you have a problem and you only know of one solution, you're gonna pick that solution because you don't know that there might be others a little bit like myself. Like how do you do, hr, if I only know of one way of doing it? That's obviously the only way of doing it. You know, I've heard this so many times.

Camilla Miehs: 16:49

It's like, but that's, you have to when you reach a certain size there are so many um statements in business that are being set as if they were natural laws. Yeah, where? And? And often they are not, but they are, we believe that they are that way so when you, you know, when you are a hundred people, you cannot operate without leaders, without you know. That's a very common thing so.

Pernille Brun: 17:18

So you now ended up in an organization where you got the opportunity to actually ditch the old ways and do it anew. And how did you end in that position?

Camilla Miehs: 17:30

Yeah, so I joined two years ago. They were looking not officially, though, but they were looking for a new group, chro, and that's what they were in the market for and I got contacted by headhunter and the first thing was like that's definitely not gonna happen, and for two reasons was like I've always very purposely avoided everything that is to a certain size and very corporate and you know what made you think this is not an organization for me well, it was.

Camilla Miehs: 18:06

First it was logistics, and again just standing and looking at it from the outside, for me, logistics was very traditional, very old-fashioned, you know it. It didn't smell of anything modern or anything progressive and especially nothing that that I was kind of trying to put into place interesting.

Camilla Miehs: 18:26

So I was thinking they need traditional HR because, that's probably what their maturity are for and what would be the best fit for what they're actually looking for. And so that was the main thing. And I was convinced to meet our CEO at the time and I thought, why not? And and we had a really, really good talk and I was very honest about why I didn't think that I was the one they were looking for and, long story short, he basically ended with saying that's exactly what we need and so I was hired in because of he was, you know, as he said, just really fed up with corporate hr okay, and had worked with that throughout his career in different um companies, and he was very much.

Camilla Miehs: 19:12

I feel that hr is there for the sake of hr. They work from hr first and then business last. They don't understand the business. There is a lot of pushback that is not being respected or listened to or understood and, again, I'm not really seeing strategic impact on creating a better business for us. So there's all of these things that I've heard for almost 20 years and I've very much heard from other companies. So often people won't walk up to you directly in your own company, but I remember it very much in in when I did my mba, so obviously I was the only hrp person in my class and um, and a lot of them were sharing a lot of frustrations with their hr team and the ways they were working. So I, for the first time, I also got a little bit outside in on how our age are actually being perceived and some of the frustrations that are generally out there. Yeah and so, and I could, at this point I could very much resonate because that's, you know, what I felt in my own career. But also.

Pernille Brun: 20:19

So you were kind of trapped because you, you were part of it, but you didn't want to be part of it. That way, exactly.

Camilla Miehs: 20:25

But it was really interesting. I mean, I think there's a lot of things to learn. And I think there's also sometimes. I mean, I try to avoid HR networks because I think it just reconfirms a lot of these practices where sometimes getting people who come from completely other disciplines to look at you as a discipline is some of the most valuable both feedback insights you can get.

Camilla Miehs: 20:52

Because, those are technically our customers, and if our customers feel a little bit shady around, what are we actually here to do and what are even our core responsibilities? And I think we need to listen to that and sometimes that's easier to get the the hardcore truth from you know, people who aren't your direct colleagues, maybe, and yeah so. So that was kind of the idea and at that's at this time they had started a strategy towards what they called a more modern way of working, so a more modern company, and obviously I was talking more about future of work so I mean we used a little bit two different words, but again very much on how do we reinvent ourselves to be um relevant for tomorrow and the future?

Camilla Miehs: 21:46

What is it that we need to build today to actually have a relevance, not only as HR but as a logistics provider, also wanting to attract young people who technically have the whole world to choose from when? They need to choose careers.

Pernille Brun: 22:01

Interesting. So your expectations and hopes and and aspirations for the organization were the same and they were aligned with the ceo. That's yes, that's what you felt exactly so you accepted the job and what. What then happened? What did you meet when you walked up into the organization the first day? And and what? What was there and what did you do with it?

Camilla Miehs: 22:28

yeah, so obviously the HR leadership team there were two people were not there anymore and so you know, I came in as that new person and the rest of the team was there. At that point I think we had 10 or 11 people and some of them were here in Denmark and otherwise they were kind of spread across Asia and Europe and US.

Pernille Brun: 22:58

And how many employees in the company in total, 800 and 50.

Camilla Miehs: 23:01

Okay, and so I came in. I was just about trying to learn and ask a lot of questions, of course, and but very early on we sat down and said, okay, we, you know, this is like pointing in all sorts of directions uh, there was obviously the big annual wheel. A lot of all of that traditional stuff that I had been working with 10 years ago was there exactly almost as I've left it. Yes, and so very much traditional and um, and then it was a very operational and so most of the people were just putting out fires day to day, so it was hard to really have a bigger impact because we were drowning in just admin.

Camilla Miehs: 23:43

Yeah, work, yeah, and everyone was kind of doing everything. So we started with. Well, the first thing was to say, okay, no one has time to do anything, everyone is swamped, so we have to create time. Yeah, where can we get that time? And some of it had to be, you know quick fixes, because sometimes you know streamlining processes and automate and all these things can take time. So where can we gain something? Now, what makes sense? And the first thing we did was just starting to pull the plug. All right, so we killed the entire HR annual wheel that just died overnight. Wow, everything except the annual salary review. That was the only thing you kept. I didn't dare to kill, and the only thing I didn't know what to put instead.

Pernille Brun: 24:30

That was the only thing was that day one, or did it take you a week to to pull the plug, or it wasn't day one, but it was definitely within month one.

Camilla Miehs: 24:40

wow, yeah, wow, and it was just like all of this adds no value. Okay, and it was just talking to people and hearing very little positive feedback around a lot of the processes and procedures, and it was the annual appraisals and we had you know.

Camilla Miehs: 24:59

I think it's also the whole language. There was so many. You know peep peep, pop, you know all these short for something and no one could ever remember what they meant. There's just a huge confusion. So I think there was also a very strong hr language which I wouldn't recommend using when you're not talking to hr people. But then there were just like these processes that everyone was like they're taking up a lot of time. I I don't understand where it is, but again, the same old, same old.

Pernille Brun: 25:26

So so you dare to ditch it, the year wheel and everything else around it, and and only keeping one thing. And how was that received? Both by your own part of the organization within hr, but but also people in the organization.

Camilla Miehs: 25:46

Well, overall, extremely positive. I got more positive feedback. It's so funny with some of those changes. Like some of them, I would expect the opposite. And then sometimes you make changes where I think this is a minor thing and that's actually what flares up a whole discussion but very little. A lot of them are like thank you for not treating us as machines or cocks in a wheel and, you know, making us forcefully fill out things that you know it's a that we feel is a waste of everyone's time. So, I think, overall, a lot of positive, including in the people team. I mean it was very adamant for me to not just come in again and roll out something on my own, regardless if that was the traditional or something new. So in that first month we also started as a team to sit down and have conversations around. Okay, we're going to ditch all of it. Yeah, what are we going to what?

Pernille Brun: 26:43

let's start from scratch why are we even here? What's our purpose? So? So the first thing was actually getting a new mindset.

Camilla Miehs: 26:49

It sounds like yeah, yeah, I mean, it was first and say why are we here? What, what, what are we here to do? Yes is it to focus on creating efficiency and productivity. Yeah, personally, I don't believe in that, because I think that's the HR purpose.

Camilla Miehs: 27:04

Speaking, I think we are here to do something more holistic than just narrowing on productivity and efficiency and not to say that that's not important, but again, and compliance and all of these things. So we came up with a new purpose, which was the short version, was set people up for success and of course we had a whole. What does that mean?

Pernille Brun: 27:30

and you know, we phrased as a team some people might have answered install more grids or yeah, but they didn't. That was not more guidelines exactly more guidelines. I don't know, but that was not the answer you came up with. No, it sounds like no, no.

Camilla Miehs: 27:48

And I think of course I made it very clear that we're going to leave HR because I'm hired to do that, so that wasn't up for discussion. And some of all of this that's going to have to go, yeah.

Pernille Brun: 28:26

Because that's the request.

Camilla Miehs: 28:27

But what? How do we redesign something? Let's do that as a team. And so I think that was, and everyone was so positive and again, I think very much most people, as you say, we enter into the realm of HR or people and culture because we want to do something good for people and culture and growth, and and so I think that's very much what I discovered that there was a team there that, even though they were hired, maybe under a different way of thinking and working, um, they were very much, you know, there to do things positive for the colleagues that they were working with it sounds liberating in a way right and I think I mean that's what how I felt, but I definitely also felt that that was how the energy was.

Camilla Miehs: 28:55

Yeah, I mean, one of the things was we had before I started there was a huge turnover in the people team, so I was very focused on okay, if there are people in this team that is not fit for where we need to go, I need to figure that out fast, because we need to create stability. Yeah, because if we don't do that, we can't create anything.

Camilla Miehs: 29:13

If we just keep you know uh, bleeding out people and have to start from scratch. We need stability and um and in the two years I've been there, I've uh, I've had one volunteer leaver.

Pernille Brun: 29:27

So in that sense I definitely see that.

Camilla Miehs: 29:29

You know, even though we have ups and downs, and struggles and everything and it's definitely not easy to make major changes. But that was key to me to create that stability because that was, like you know, first one.

Camilla Miehs: 29:43

We've created our you know framework for how we need to work and priorities, and we work with okrs in terms of road maps and priorities and just what, and initiatives and things like that, but, uh, but it was clear that we needed to have people who wanted to be here, yeah, and, and that stability would be crucial for us to.

Pernille Brun: 30:05

Yeah, you know, but you, but you also invited them in in the dialogue around yeah, the the reason we are here, uh, and and in that dialogue you were also kind of inviting them to to rethink the whole business model or the way of offering your services, from from people in culture to the organization. And did everyone feel comfortable with not having the structures anymore? So there must have been. I mean, I don't know.

Camilla Miehs: 30:36

I'm curious to hear how much you have installed now new procedures and new ways and what kind of what replaces the old right, yeah, but, but there must have been a phase where you had almost nothing, it sounds like and and was that okay for everybody, or well, I think, um the key priorities, was that also the first year I was there, it I mean it was very clear that some of the work we need to do is going to be very invisible and behind the scenes and just setting ourself up for success and creating new structures and and automate processes. That we were spending too. I mean all of that and that creates zero value for our customers aka our colleagues day one at least, yes

Camilla Miehs: 31:18

exactly and it's very hard to see. So I didn't want us to come out and say, hey, we are changing our name and the difference between the old and the new and everything I mean. I I toured very much with that when, once that was settled within the first three months, and I didn't want that to just be like silence for a year. No, so it was very clear that, okay, we have these long-term things that we need to do, but that is going to feel, you know, know, very little impact on the business In the beginning. In the beginning, yeah, and then we need to figure out some of the clear things that you know is very tangible and you can feel from an organizational perspective, yeah, and so it was balancing those two things.

Camilla Miehs: 32:01

Yes, so the first year, one of the things we did, we first thing we did was to create a flexibility policy, and obviously we talk very much about policy is not how you create culture. But there was, it was extremely fragmented, you know. Certain teams were allowed a lot of flexibility and certain teams were asked to be in the office five days a week. So we were like, okay, we need to create if we want to be a modern progressive. Uh, you know future fit workplace.

Camilla Miehs: 32:29

This is what we need to do, and so we need to align on what that looks like, and then how did you identify that as a first step for installing a new procedure or well, I think it was again back to why not rules on lunch or rules on one-to-ones.

Pernille Brun: 32:52

How often you started with flexible?

Camilla Miehs: 32:55

work and I think it was very much again, I saw it very much almost as a license to operate. That was my opinion and I think you know, if we want to attract candidates and we are definitely also competing with organizations that are better or bigger, they're better in certain ways because they're more established or they have you have, better, better chances of other things that we are not able to offer because of we're smaller sized and some of our competitors so on. So it was very much like what is it that we are not able to offer because we are smaller sized than some of our competitors? So it was very much like what is it that we can do fairly without cost, but that can have a huge impact and that everyone can feel that it's not only for a small segment, but that can just give everyone that feeling of trust and flexibility. And so that was the first thing, uh, putting that in place and, of course, again, very adamant around. You know, writing a policy doesn't mean that it's being lived, and there are definitely managers in the organization that would prefer people to be in the office five days a week. So here a policy wouldn't be enough.

Camilla Miehs: 34:10

So we, the same year, we also one of the things we did. We pulled the plug on the annual satisfaction survey that we also had. That died immediately, and then that first year we put in place pulse surveys, and that was just. That was for different reasons. That was, for us, not navigating in the blind. So where are we supposed to put our efforts in?

Camilla Miehs: 34:34

So, instead of sitting and guessing, we needed data, feedback and input from the organization on, from everyone in the organization on where are we doing really well and where is work to be done, so we could prioritize our work towards that. And again, I was sitting in different meetings with managers and discussing how business is going and only financial and operational KPIs were present in that meeting. There was no people, data or dialogue or focus at all. So it all became on how much money are we making and how productive or effective are we being, and so we needed a counterbalance to that that also had a people voice, because, after all, the people are who actually. This is the, because, after all, the people are who actually. This is the output, but you know, the people are the, the ones creating these results. So, yes, we put that and that was. I have been used to that.

Pernille Brun: 35:34

Sometimes that can be a little bit of a battle, uh, to get managers to actually engage in that yeah, because that's a requirement of another way of engaging with something which has to do with, uh, filling out something, something.

Camilla Miehs: 35:47

Yes, answering some questions, yeah and the positive thing was that the top management layer, so the c level, the group management, including the ceo that hired me he, I mean, was so engaged. I mean he even called me I think we launched a month in. He was like I don't know how to get work done, because I'm like so into this system, I'm like keep reading feedback and everything.

Camilla Miehs: 36:12

So he was extremely focused on that side and again it just it, it no one could hide and it and I mean it was also both positive and negative. So you know, we could now see the not so great pockets we had where teams were clearly not thriving and managers were clearly not either prioritizing it or able or didn't know what to do about it. Yeah, and we were now also seeing. When I started, I heard a lot. There was this narrative around we have shit managers, the managers aren't good. You know lot. There was this narrative around we have shit managers, the managers aren't good. You know there was this narrative constantly. And when the data came back and to this day still, relationship with managers, the higher scoring metrics- we have, so the perception didn't align with reality at all and it was very much.

Camilla Miehs: 37:01

I guess you can always discuss what do we mean when we say good leaders, but I think we could definitely. When we asked all our colleagues in in in the company, we could definitely say well, they're saying that you know the relationship, the communication and the trust to their nearest manager is one of the biggest engagement factors so we could, at least you know, kill that myth, yeah, and move on from that, because now we're from facts.

Pernille Brun: 37:28

Yes, yes, yeah and. And so just for those who might not know what a pulse survey, is and just not to maybe uh think that it's the same as another procedure you install which is very time consuming. How much does it uh time does it cost?

Camilla Miehs: 37:45

but also, you know, effort to to fill out a pulse yeah, so we do our pulse on a monthly um and um, when that means that each month each individual gets 12 questions, 20 questions, now I answer them all the time, obviously as well, and they take somewhere between two to five minutes or depending on you know how much feedback you want to leave, because most of it is a scoring system, so it's relatively low effort from input.

Camilla Miehs: 38:21

Yeah, the big thing is, of course, then what happens next with the data exactly. And here it's again. We can obviously track a manager response, which has been one of our big focus areas, so all the feedback is that even being read and recognized and replied to. Um, and that has been something we've hunted where we can just see there is a group of managers that are just extremely good at this and then there are some that are clearly not prioritizing needing some help yes, but then it spares different conversation, because if you then have managers that don't prioritize it and regardless of the support and push and anything still doesn't, then they are technically underperforming, at least on their people results.

Camilla Miehs: 39:10

One of the things we did when in the beginning was we re-org'd our team, so we created a ta team, so talent attraction, we created a people operations team, which is more you know the the more traditional admin work of HR, and then we created our business partner team and the business partner for us was very clear that we had to separate that from the operational things. So the business partner is focus is to solely focus on engagement and work on driving better engagement and culture and also performance and everything else, but help managers and teams be successful, exactly and you know, set them up for success exactly and figure out.

Camilla Miehs: 39:55

How does that look like for your team? It might be different, so in one team it might be helping them setting up and structure one-on-ones, if that's what you know it's needed and and for other teams it might look different and it might have different. Again, the whole point is we don't come in with a one-size-fits-all. We come in and try to identify what's the problem or opportunity and from there have a conversation with the manager and sometimes the entire team depending on that.

Camilla Miehs: 40:22

And then we are more facilitators, and then, of course, we have a toolbox of, of you know, templates and guides and all sorts of things that we can put into and do you have that in place now?

Pernille Brun: 40:36

it wasn't there when you started, or uh, no, it wasn't there.

Camilla Miehs: 40:40

We're still building on that. So we said we're going to build a supermarket and a supermarket is there to fulfill very specific needs that individual and teams has, and so I can go in and navigate the supermarket. So we started with saying we will have different sections and in those sections we will have aisles. And the first sections section we built was the engagement section and we were like we have pulse surveys, so that's the engagement, so that's a business kpi driver that you know that's a result that we need to create.

Camilla Miehs: 41:14

Yeah, okay, we're now building an engagement section and then we are mirroring the 10 metrics in that to the 10 aisles and that means that managers and teams can look into their results and say, hey, feedback is the lowest scoring. Clearly, my team feels that they are definitely lacking feedback, either quality or frequency or whatever. Okay, what do I do now? Now I can go into the engagement, roll down to the aisle of feedback and here I can find a different product. Some of them is very bespoke to managers. So how can I, you know, build feedback into day-to-day or one-on-ones, or? You know things that I can plug and play. I do right now.

Camilla Miehs: 41:59

So it wasn't, like you know, academic, wise feedback. You know it was very much. It needs to be something you can plug and play and use right away. Then we built workshops which were team focused. So this is where we would come out and facilitate. You know smaller workshops where we say, ok, we have the tools for this, but you set up the goal as a team and you also need to commit to. You know what's going to happen after this and we will follow up and, of course, and then we can actually see in our engagement if all of these things that either you, dear manager, or we as a team is, are putting in place, are they actually making a difference?

Pernille Brun: 42:39

yeah, not, and it makes sense why we're having a workshop on feedback, because you just gave feedback that this was what you needed more of.

Camilla Miehs: 42:47

Yeah and so interesting it was. And then we did one on performance, which I'm still back and forth, if that's the name we want to call it, but for now that's what it is. And now we are starting to build aisles around goal setting. So we can see several teams are saying, you know, we do daily work, but I don't feel like what's the actual goal and where we headed and what are the purpose and how we connect it to the rest of the organization. So how do you actually set goal and work with those goals?

Camilla Miehs: 43:16

And we also did one on more efficient meetings that I run, which is actually completely stolen from the self-led organizations. So how can you, as a manager, you know, include people more in decision making and but still have a structure and yeah, and and run more efficient? And I introduced it in the management team as well. Yes, and for the first time, we were on time, we managed to actually have our meetings within the time period and we managed to go through all of the points and everyone had a clear owner in the next step awesome. So sometimes it's and it's again it's simple. It's not something that requires like ton of practice and work and everything, but we come out. We, we help start it up, we give the guides and the tools. Yeah, and then it should be something that you know the team can make their own as well and run with exactly yeah, and it doesn't sound like so.

Pernille Brun: 44:15

So you, you ditched something and now you put something else in place, but it doesn't sound like everyone has to go through it. It's like mandatory. You take this course on feedback or whatever.

Camilla Miehs: 44:27

It's what's needed in the, in the context and the circumstances you find yourself in, exactly I think this is important, instead of just rolling out mandatory sexual harassment training, taking off the all of these again. It comes back to the whole annual wheel of things and what if it's required then by law or you know? Yeah, I would definitely be the first to challenge that.

Pernille Brun: 44:48

That's for sure. Like what? Well, I am just, you know, there's a new law on time registration. What's your take on that, for instance?

Camilla Miehs: 44:59

So I think, for me, when we look at setting people up for success, a part of that also means and we know this also by studies, and, and you know so, it's not something we just invented but, um, having some sort of autonomy is super important to everyone, especially autonomy over things that impact my daily work directly, and so I hear a lot right now that we're talking about.

Camilla Miehs: 45:27

You know, know, we're getting more and more freedom, flexibility and autonomy at work, but I would also and I think that is right for certain things in terms of flexible working. But if we zoom out and look at the whole pictures, as individuals in society and in workplaces, we have never, ever, been surrounded by more rules than we are today, and I think the rules are, per definition, the opposite of freedom, and it's coming in from government bodies, from our own organization, hr tends to be very good at producing long handbooks and policies and standing there ready to catch all compliance to implement it, and so the time registration that was, you know, set by eu some years ago, which denmark decided to implement this summer. We had a discussion and and again, this was a huge allergy of mine I was just just like we should not do it.

Camilla Miehs: 46:31

And again, it's back to meaning and sense giving, and we all agreed including whether you're a manager or not, everyone were more or less on the same page that this is a tedious task that creates no value from my perspective. So we had a discussion around it and everyone agreed that this was just stupid. Yeah, yeah, basically, and so I obviously went for. Let's just f that, and you know, and obviously we had conversations with lawyers around what happens if we don't? What is kind of the worst. I mean, we're like okay if someone goes to jail, maybe we should consider that, but if that is not so.

Pernille Brun: 47:11

That's actually a question you ask. You know, right, yeah, what's the okay if we ditch it? What's what? What's going to happen? Yes, is anyone going to die or go to jail?

Camilla Miehs: 47:21

or yeah. So I think the first question, once you have all of these rules and policies, procedures, whether they come from the organization or outside it is what happens if we don't comply? What happens if we don't do it? And you find, with a lot of it, that it's actually not that bad, and and then sometimes you have to find a pragmatic solution in between, and I think with time registration was the same. So we basically said what happens if we don't do it? And right now it's like, well, it's not a good thing, because then you are non-compliant, okay, but we can live with that.

Camilla Miehs: 47:57

What happens if we don't do it and nothing happens? There is no fee, there is no legal, yet at least, and so I opted for let's not do it. We can definitely buy ourselves a few years with less bureaucracy while focusing on other things. And if things, if the rule changed, then let's look at it. And then, of course, it landed maybe a little bit in between. So we, um, we decided that we had already a time registration for a few people who are hourly paid.

Camilla Miehs: 48:28

So we said, okay, we are going to set it up. So everyone's hours per contract is in there, you don't have to do anything, it's just pre-filled. So there's no real work to be done and no one. We we're going to switch off the entire approval process. So when, if you, dear colleague, wants to register your deviations, you are free to do so. So if it, if it, if it gives you something, and if it's important to you, knock yourself out just know that it won't trigger any.

Pernille Brun: 49:02

You know alarm bell or any warning signs or red apples for doing it. Yeah, exactly, uh, yeah, we'll necessarily applaud you for doing it neither.

Camilla Miehs: 49:12

No, we won't create a culture around it and we won't uh you know so interesting, but but what I think what was important was to go back to, and so when we communicated that and I was extremely positive, it- was really well received in the organization, but what we also that when we communicate, is that, hey, we are not running from the responsibility that we have where this whole debate started in eu, and that is that we have a responsibility as a company to make sure that there is a work-life balance and that you are not, you know, exploited especially, also in your hours and so for us it was like okay, let's go back to the intent of why this is important, let's emphasize that, let's make sure that there's clear you know procedures in if you feel that you know I am overworked, and there is, you know I'm working, I'm far from working the contractual hours.

Camilla Miehs: 50:10

What am I then supposed to do if no one reacts to the fact that I'm putting it in here? So we made that very clear on. This is the way you should, you know, alarm the system. And these are the steps. And so we put a place that was obviously you know, talk to your manager. So we put a place that was obviously you know, talk to your manager. If not, you know there is a grievance procedure which you know people and culture will handle internally. And then the latter step is you can whistleblow anonymously.

Camilla Miehs: 50:36

So there's a whole system that catches not only working hours but all sorts of things that you want to raise, because I think it was important not to say, hey, it's not our responsibility exactly, but we just don't want to implement it in this way any more bureaucracy yeah yeah, things that are slowing you down.

Pernille Brun: 50:59

So, um, I'm a little bit mindful of the time because we could, we could talk for. However, I want to ask you, towards the end of this episode here, a few questions about your role and perhaps a few good advice for others in similar positions as yours, but where they do not necessarily have as supportive an organization around them who really understands and applauds that you ditch it all and replace it with something else. Uh, what would you could advise? Be there.

Camilla Miehs: 51:31

Uh, maybe we start there, okay, yeah well, I think one of the biggest problems I see in the world of hr and people and culture and I've definitely struggled with that is the intent of trying to do both. And so I think, uh, I'm often met with I I mean I created this um, which I posted on linkedin a few times as well, but I created this what is the difference between hr and people and culture? Where I've been, like, it's two different ways of viewing it, human beings, it's two different purpose, it's two different mindsets and it's two different designs, and so one of the things I hear often is yeah, but we are, but we're doing both. And I think this is the problem, because it's like trying to be a good cop and bad cop, and and I think I definitely and I see a lot of people struggling with that I also see that it sends very mixed signals and I think again, like, is the whole old, old discussion which is still alive and well, is hr there to be your friend or they're there to because they work for the company?

Camilla Miehs: 52:35

And I think, because we're trying to do both kind of thing, so it becomes a little bit um, schizophrenic completely, and I think for me, the best decision I ever made was to clarify what is the purpose, and so every time you have discussions around minor things or bigger things and you and you can take it in seven different directions, like is is you know which one is the right way of actually doing. I think it helps me very much and it helps our team to navigate and be consistent in what we do, in saying, okay, are we setting people up for success? You know, just go through that whole structure of are we, is this a one-size-fits-all, or are we thinking people first and processes after?

Camilla Miehs: 53:22

or you know, there's just so many things where you can test if this is actually consistent with what you're trying to be, and I think for anyone, whether you're a team or a company, or a brand or an individual, I mean you need to have integrity in what you do, you need to have consistency and to one day be over here and talking about, you know, one size fits all and efficiency for the sake of that. And then the next day you're talking about how important it is to create autonomy and, you know, mastery or whatever it might be, and purpose and work and sense of belonging, and sometimes these two things just you know they cannot coexist, collide. We tend to think very much on efficiencies first, it's very short term, but can people thrive in this sort of environment over a long period of time without burnout and, you know, yes, loss of meaningfulness and all of these things that are completely, they are not nice to have. They're completely, you know, basic for us Waste of resources.

Pernille Brun: 54:35

Yes, also, if you are to use that word.

Camilla Miehs: 54:38

Yeah, but I think it's also we undermine sometimes in business that it's so basic. I mean, if we don't have a sense of purpose and a purpose doesn't mean that we are here to save the world, but that I feel that I'm actually contributing to something larger than myself. You know, if I don't feel I have any freedom or autonomy in anything that impacts my work and if I don't feel that I'm doing what I'm good at and that I can, you know so they to your strengths.

Camilla Miehs: 55:07

And yeah, so I'm a little bit back to the daniel pink drive and and sometimes they are being treated as nice to have. But we know exactly, if those three things are not there, we burn out and we become sick, like literally sick, as human beings, and we are not worth a whole lot for anyone if we are burned out and sick. So I think there's also something when we say setting people up for success, it means that it's the long term, yes, it's the, it's understanding that it looks different on different times in our life. So how success and how what I need as an individual to perform today might look different in a year, because now I'm becoming a mother, or I have a crisis in my family, or my parents are old, or I just, you know, need something else.

Camilla Miehs: 55:57

I mean and we cannot design and predict that only you know that but, we can design an environment that is flexible enough for you to have the option of fitting your life so again, that came.

Pernille Brun: 56:12

that's. That brings us back to the flexible why you started out, maybe with that procedure or putting that in place, making that very clear for everyone. I really want to thank you for being part of this episode. I'm sure sure we're going to invite you back in for another episode another time, and maybe we can talk a little bit more in detail into some of the concrete things you have then replaced the old with, because it's very inspirational and we are for sure not done. But thank you so much, camilla, for stopping by today. Of course, anytime You've been listening to the Work in Progress podcast on people and culture. If you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to share on social media. For more resources on people, culture and working in a modern world, please visit getsessioncom and check out our articles, guides, webinars and more. Thanks for listening.