Pernille Brun: 0:04

Welcome to Work in Progress, a podcast series where I pick the brain of thought leaders within the field of people and culture. My name is Pernille Brun and in these talks we explore the latest trends shaping the future of work and the evolving landscape of modern organizations. In today's episode, I'm speaking with Ditte Buch Andersen, who is Director of People and Culture at Neurons. All right, welcome, Ditte. This is very nice. Thank you for inviting us. It's an informal conversation around topics anything people and culture and then let's see where it takes us

Ditte Buch Andersen: 0:38

Awesome.

Ditte Buch Andersen: 0:39

Thank you very much for thinking of me.

Pernille Brun: 0:42

How many people were you when you started out here in the company?

Ditte Buch Andersen: 0:46

In total. I believe I was told we were 50.

Pernille Brun: 0:52

And you were the only people and culture person.

Ditte Buch Andersen: 0:55

Yes, apart from the office. Well, there were two office people at the time, right, so there was an office manager and an office assistant.

Pernille Brun: 1:02

All right, and how had they outsourced? They hadn't well, so how did?

Ditte Buch Andersen: 1:09

that happen. So payroll was happening mostly in finance, okay, and today it's very split between it's a it's a collaboration between people in culture and finance and what else and how come you decided to merge it into people and culture.

Pernille Brun: 1:29

The payroll for instance.

Ditte Buch Andersen: 1:31

I think it's because, like, so that's, it's a very it's a long discussion back and forth and where does it actually live best? And yeah, it's one of those. It's like you can push it back and forth and we don't want it. La, la, la, la la. But actually it came about for a number of different reasons.

Ditte Buch Andersen: 1:47

In the beginning, I had thought, well, I don't think it belongs with us, but of course, we are co-creators and we are the people who know about, like, who have all the insights on what should go into there. So there needs to be a strong collaboration regardless. Now, it just so happened that the person I then recruited for the position had a background where she knew about both Denlo and that is what we use, and she also had significant insights on how to run it, and so it became more of a okay, what skills do we have and how can we apply them? And so we very often take that approach. Right, I would hate to to hire someone and just go like this is a box and you have to squeeze into it and there's, yeah, no fitting around. So I also try to go by what motivates you the most? And and how would that? How does that fit with the business needs. So we can well ensure engagement and ensure that that experience is a great one for everyone involved.

Pernille Brun: 2:51

So there's a role description and then, of course, you hire based on the role description. But then when people start out, you need to figure out what motivates you, what makes you tick.

Ditte Buch Andersen: 3:00

Well, actually it starts earlier, right, it starts sooner. It starts in the recruiting process that you go okay. So which are the most important items on this giant list that I have? I mean, and ideally I would have one person that fits all of these requirements, but let's face it, that's not how it works, not when dating either. Is it's like yeah, I would like it, yes, that's fine, you would like?

Pernille Brun: 3:23

yes, but that's. It's never the reality.

Ditte Buch Andersen: 3:25

Look like what does reality look like? And also thinking about how, you know, maybe what I would like isn't it doesn't equal what I need. Okay, right, so there's also that figuring out how, how does a person also fit into the culture that you're trying to create and how do they add to the culture? I find that so important, that to not just try to again squeeze people into a box, but also look at what do they bring and how.

Pernille Brun: 3:54

Yeah, so it's not a culture fit but a culture add. That's very interesting because that's one of the terms that is very often coming up when you look into new trends within P&C. It's one of those things that people constantly discuss. You know, when hiring, do you need to hire for culture fit or culture add, and why is it that it's, in your opinion, needs to be a culture add and not just a culture fit?

Ditte Buch Andersen: 4:24

Right? I think two things. It's, in your opinion, needs to be a culture add and not just a culture fit, right? Um, I think I think two things. I think that, like similarly to dating, right, like we would be better off if we knew who we were before we started going out and attracting someone that we think we need. And it's the same for a business, right where you like. If you think long and hard about what are the values that we want to cultivate, what is the type of employer and workplace that we want to be, and if you have all those nails, it's easier to go. Well, at least we have a framework of what we want. And it's not to say that nothing that comes out of that can't fit in, but it's at least a guideline, right? It's a set of guidelines to say look, we are performance-based, it has to be performance-based. So maybe a certain type of person would not fit into that by default, but you would have. Again, there are guidelines, right, but it doesn't say you have to be a certain person and you have to fit into this box to work here, completely Indeed. So I think that that's where the culture add comes in. Right, where you go.

Ditte Buch Andersen: 5:35

Okay, tell me about who are you and how do you deal with things. How do you deal with adversity, how do you deal when people challenge you conflict-wise and that sort of thing, and what could you maybe bring? And some of it is implicit in the values and the motivation that they bring, but some of it has a lot to do also with experience and coming from somewhere else, where they saw that you know we used to do it like this yes, over here, and that never works. So let's not do that, okay, we can skip that step. Or it worked really well. Let's try to see if that might, you know, be a good ad that we can use here. So it can be both values and it can also be experience that you bring.

Pernille Brun: 6:21

But that means when you enter a company as a head of people and culture, for instance, you need to look at is there a framework or a set of principles? So people often ask how do you actually build up values or guiding principles, or and what's the process?

Ditte Buch Andersen: 6:39

yes, well, I. So this is one thing that I cannot take credit for all by myself. Right, of course there is um, we have a ceo, we have a coo, and of course, they're very not just involved, it's driven also by them, right, so, and especially, in this case, our CEO. So.

Ditte Buch Andersen: 6:57

But what I did was I tried to facilitate it more and, and you know, shed some light to it, and it talked about, well, how important this is and let's make sure that we get into writing, let's make sure that we communicate it, and I drove a process of an actual brainstorming where we went okay, so who do we want to be, who do you see yourselves at? Were these some of the questions you asked? Yes, but it actually came about. We did a more thorough process where we we had one person from from my team interviewing ten people. I believe it was from people that we had kind of sought out to be like cultural bearers or people who've been here for a while and who had thoughts around the culture and so kind of like ambassadors that you would want to see more of yes, but also like who could maybe provide a little bit of a critical um, insights to right.

Ditte Buch Andersen: 7:51

So? So both like we weren't only interested in people who were like, yeah, this is the best place in the world, because you also want to see, like, what's the backdrop of it all, right, so, um, so we did that and then we did and then what kind? Of questions, did you ask them? So, oh, it's been a while. What kind of questions? So questions would revolve around like could you, could you give me like the three, three words that to you describe what this, what this culture is?

Ditte Buch Andersen: 8:20

yes, and and then, of course, going that's just an offset, right, and, of course, asking people to to elaborate on that. So what do you mean when you say fun? What's fun to you, and what do you mean? How does that actually? Yeah, how is that? Does that mean that people are laughing all the time? Does it mean that they're fun-loving? What is it? What is it?

Ditte Buch Andersen: 8:43

So getting a little granular, so it was very it. That was also why it was interviews and not just a survey, right to get to get some some qualitative data here, right. And then, with all the qualitative data that we had, we took that and we, you know, sliced it and diced it and said, okay, so what's being said, what are the words that have been said, what is the values that people contribute to those words? And then we presented all of that to the leadership, to CEO and COO, and said, hey, this is what has been said, how much of this rings true to you? Yes, because of course, it's their baby, or whatever you want to say, and as they grow and as a company grow, of course they're going to get further and further away from some of the things. So there were some surprises and there were some moments.

Pernille Brun: 9:37

And can you take it all for you know, of course you could take it for granted, but I'm also curious. A great value at a certain stage or time in the company's history, but what about later on? And what if it doesn't fit? How did you go about?

Ditte Buch Andersen: 10:03

that. So I would say that a lot of stuff had happened in our CEO's brain already, right, so he was ready to drive it in a certain direction and, of course, as you say, also there's a vision and a mission, so, and the third leg of that is the values, right, so that's kind of where it all drizzled down. So he had ideas and my, my role here was to also play the devil's advocate, right, and go okay, so, yeah, that's great, fantastic thoughts. Now, how does that align, do you think, with that? So, so, asking those questions and, as you also said, like okay, so if we're on this journey and we're expecting to, well, maybe two years is a long time and but, but but think two years ahead, think six months ahead, how would that? They still help us? Indeed, right, and also, if we fun was never, it was, it was never fun here. Now, that's not what I mean, but but it was never fun.

Ditte Buch Andersen: 10:54

There was an actual value, right, it was never set, but you had, like collaboration, for instance, like okay, that's great, okay, is that a value that we want to be an absolute, or do we want to narrow it down even further?

Ditte Buch Andersen: 11:09

And so I think that a lot of what happens here, like it's actually killing your darlings, right, because there's so many words and so many values that you're like we couldn't live without it, we couldn't exist without it, which is also true, but some of them can still be like, aligned under one right, and we ended up we ended up with three words um, and that was a hard uh, birth, what did you end up with? So we ended up with integrity, which is based on, like a scientific value that is very dear to our CEO, and we ended up with responsibility and, finally, growth. Yeah, so, and then you could discuss like, okay, so what is growth? What is I think? So there's a lot of. You can unfold it again. Right, that's the. That's the idea. You kind of you start by minimizing all that you can and then you unfold it again. Right, that's the idea. You start by minimizing all that you can and then you unfold it again as you then start to speak to the organization about it.

Pernille Brun: 12:02

And then there was something about you know, you connected certain animals to the values. I heard yes again. Why, why did you do that? I wish I could.

Ditte Buch Andersen: 12:13

And what animals we need to hear. Well, so yeah, the animals are. I'll start by saying that you know it's. The integrity became an elephant, the growth a gazelle and the responsibility a zebra, and so it came about. Again. This is. I take no responsibility for this. I think it's a beautiful and a really, really cool way of doing it, but it's all due to our CEO, right? So he was very much at the time. He was thinking about principles. So you mean you take no credit.

Pernille Brun: 12:48

I take no credit, it's not that Well. Responsibility yes.

Ditte Buch Andersen: 12:52

Well, that's a value.

Pernille Brun: 12:53

Yes, I take no credit.

Ditte Buch Andersen: 12:54

Exactly, I take no credit for it absolutely of value. Yes, I take no credit for it, absolutely so. So he had already done some thinking on like the types of companies, that that you can be right. And there's the gazelle thing where you can like, which is about growth and very, but in a financial way, usually right, and that is where the gazelle came from, because of the gazelle prizes, all that gazelle companies, and then the um and then the zebra is the sort of thing that's been we've been talking about that more in recent years uh, in the world about, okay, so the responsibility that you also carry as an organization, that it's not just about you know making, but you also have a societal and an environmental impact and all the ESG that's coming now actually, but there was at least a few articles back in the day about zebra companies. So hence the zebra and the responsibility.

Ditte Buch Andersen: 13:54

And then the final one there was no animal attached to it and it used to be a tiger and I was like, well, yes indeed, it used to be a tiger, but when it was first a tiger that one, that one I take credit for, because I was like I don't really see what this predator is doing here and it's also not african like the other one, so should we maybe stick in the same region. And also to me at least, the elephant signified something that's like very stable, integrity, that sort of thing, and then we looked it up too to see like what words are Characteristics of the elephant.

Ditte Buch Andersen: 14:33

So that's kind of how it came about, and I do think that it's a little bit of a stroke of genius to kind of tie these two together. Yeah, the animals and the words yes indeed, because it gives you a bit more flavor to it. It gives you well, it gives you a picture and, for many people who are visual, instead of just having like responsibility, yes, what does it mean?

Pernille Brun: 14:55

So, yeah, so responsibility is a zebra, yes. What does it mean? Right? So, yeah, yeah, so responsibility is a zebra, yes. And and when you talk about the zebra and the articles that came out of it, for those who maybe do not know about it, so there's been a lot of talk about unicorns and and then came in the zebra companies instead. So so let's not only focus on the financials and the one billion or million or whatever, but the collaboration part and how you add to society. Is that something? What can you give back, more than maybe thinking about only your own growth? What's your take on that?

Ditte Buch Andersen: 15:32

Oh, I love it. I love that. I mean I hate, and I love it because of, of course, it creates a lot of work for me, but I also, well, because there is a lot of, you know, with the ESG stuff that's coming on and you know it's going to be a lot of work. It's going to be for many people. They think of it as an extra, which I can also see. If you're a one-man band, that's a lot of extra to have to do. It's also see, if you're a one-man band, that's a lot of extra to have to do. It's the reporting. The reporting, yeah, but the way I see it is that once that's in place, it's no different than reporting on so many other things, like finances, which is also a mandatory right.

Ditte Buch Andersen: 16:09

We kind of have to do it, and I think that the way that it does help is by shedding some lights to some of some of the things that we've been completely oblivious about for so long that it's just been like, well, we don't have, we don't have any data on it, so therefore it does not exist, yeah, and similar to diversity, inclusion and so on, it's like, well, I don't have a problem, so therefore there's no problem, and I think that you know, know, as a company, instead of going like, oh no, I don't want it because it's scary, because it is scary, instead going like, well, but actually, what's in it? For me? And there is something in it, I truly believe there is like well, if we start educating ourselves more on like, what is the actual impact that we have, we could actually use that in a business sense to go, okay, well, we're also trying to hire people to whom it actually matters what sort of imprint that we have, what sort of purpose that we bring to the world. What is our purpose? Why are we here?

Ditte Buch Andersen: 17:11

So it will make it easier for us to actually recruit those people and keep those people engaged while they're here. So I think that there's a lot of it's intrinsic to what I actually already do. Not so much necessarily on the environmental part, let's face it. I mean, we're about a small cog in the wheel right, but at least on the diversity and the social part we're very concerned about what happens internally, but I do believe that we also have a responsibility in being part of the world.

Pernille Brun: 17:45

So it guides you both when you hire, to look out for people who are attracted to workplaces that actually put a value on that, but it also guides you in terms of your daily operations. I would say, yeah, how do you manage that?

Ditte Buch Andersen: 18:02

Well, so I think part of this whole thing with putting, for instance, the values in place, we also made it a thing to think about. Well, what does this mean for people, so that they would have some guidelines, right. What does responsibility mean in your day-to-day work? Well, it means take responsibility for your work. It means no pointing fingers, it means you know that sort of thing right, and so I would say that, in and of itself, it'd be probably because I was so part of this. I live it, I feel like I live it every day.

Ditte Buch Andersen: 18:34

I mean, you'd have to ask someone else if it's true, but yeah, let's say so for our internal processes, the processes that we put up in the HR sphere. It's, I would say, the responsibility and integrity bit is about you know, making sure that it's the best process, that it's not too elaborate for the size that we are are, but to make sure that we actually get you know get things done right and get you know get shit done yeah so instead of just like because you have seen it plenty of times too like it's a lot of trial and error, this right, um, but, but you know you can go, you can go, you can.

Ditte Buch Andersen: 19:17

You can really get in deep if you have, for instance, a hiring manager who goes oh okay, so we're hiring this person, and da-da-da-da-da, and you have no one to approve it, for instance, and you just go, okay, here's a contract, here you go, and you're just, you're really feeling that, oh, I'm just doing my job, I'm just, you know, trying to be to deliver, yes, but then it turns out that this was actually never approved and it was never budgeted. And, oh my God, now you have a situation right, yes, so, yeah, so you use the guiding values as guiding.

Pernille Brun: 19:49

Yes, so exactly, well, that plus experience, right? Yes?

Ditte Buch Andersen: 19:52

And again, yes, of course, bringing that integrity and the responsibility into it, but at the same time never forgetting that there's a growth aspect that we also want to make sure that we can actually go there fast, so that's like, but not putting hindrances in place. What could hindrances?

Ditte Buch Andersen: 20:10

be, Well, if a process is overly lengthy or it takes forever for us to get back to people it's like well, so you, as a hiring manager, you reach out and you say, hey, I would love to kickstart this, hire an SDR, something, something. And well, first off, it takes us a week to get back to you and then, secondly, it takes us another week to get a meeting in the calendar. And you know it's. That's not good enough.

Pernille Brun: 20:39

And Ditte, we could talk forever, but I think we'll have to come back and visit you another time and then take another round and other topics close to your heart.

Pernille Brun: 20:46

So thank you so much. Thank you, it's been a pleasure you've been listening to the work in progress podcast on people and culture. If you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to share on social media for more resources on people culture. And. If you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to share on social media For more resources on people, culture and working in a modern world. Please visit getsessioncom and check out our articles, guides, webinars and more. Thanks for listening.