Speaker 1: 0:04

Welcome to Work in Progress, a podcast series where I pick the brain of thought leaders within the field of people and culture. My name is Pernille Bruun and in these talks, we explore the latest trends shaping the future of work and the evolving landscape of modern organizations. In today's episode, I'm speaking with Mikael Frandl, who is Global Solutions Lead within Culture, engagement and Performance at Novo Nordisk. Michael, thank you for inviting me.

Speaker 1: 0:32

We're sitting here in a really, really cozy environment and we're going to talk about your work. You brewed me some coffee and we're ready to go, and the topic of today is people in culture and engagement and anything around the space of the workforce. So, basically, our jobs as people and culture managers is to ensure a good working environment, but your title also maybe says a little bit about what you are working with, and then we're going to, of course, dig deeper into. Is that, then, what you do and what advice do you have for anyone who would like to enter into this workspace and also talk a little bit about, maybe, the the requirements of the future of work, because that's also an area where we really need to, um, fill out our roles in a way where we make sure that people can thrive and perform, and your title is Global Solutions Lead, culture, engagement and Performance at Novo Nordisk. That's a mouthful, so maybe this is where we start right.

Speaker 2: 1:33

Yeah, why do you?

Speaker 1: 1:35

say it's a mouthful.

Speaker 2: 1:36

Well, it's just a lot of words, doesn't it? It's a good thing most people don't have business cards now, because I don't know if that would fit across one business card. So with this particular role, it's supposed to, I think, very much capture what it is that we do within the title itself. So, by saying culture, engagement and performance, those are the main areas that myself and the team that I work with focus on. I've worked in similar roles with similar long titles or with shorter titles, but broadly speaking, what I work on are initiatives around employee engagement and culture, performance, leadership and also flexible working and new other things that impact organizational culture, around the new kind of modern, hybrid ways of working.

Speaker 1: 2:21

Okay, so can you tell us a little bit more about the modern hybrid working conditions that people are facing these days? Because you're part of a rather large organization? Yeah, you could say that. Yeah, so no idea how many employees in total.

Speaker 2: 2:37

So now we are, depending on how you count it, let's say around 60,000 employees. It's probably more or less, depending on the day or what day I checked the number last. But yes, obviously the big part about hybrid working or flexible working is the place in which you work or how you do your work. So actually, the team that I work on now is responsible for the global guidance around policies and procedures on what flexible working means within Novo Nordisk, and there's broad different categories of what that means you know, such as you know the flex place, like the place where you work, flex time, the timing in which you're working, but broadly speaking, we are also responsible for the global kind of guidance around that system as well.

Speaker 1: 3:20

Oh, interesting. So how large is your team?

Speaker 2: 3:24

It's not super large. Currently it's my manager now, and then myself and two other individuals with a similar role to me, a third who has a very similar but slightly different as well, and then someone on the data analytics team who works with us not quite full time, but a large amount of his time also supports us.

Speaker 1: 3:43

Okay, and is this kind of like a new department or team within Novo Nordisk? Yeah, when did you start out?

Speaker 2: 3:50

I started the company less than six months ago, so I'm still very new and I believe the team as it currently sits is fairly new as well. I'm not quite 100% sure how it always fit in. They've always had engagement surveys or people responsible working on the culture, but the team itself, I think, is fairly new. My manager joined the company within the last year and you know she's, you know, been really great to work with as well, along with meeting new colleagues, all the joys of starting a new job, and especially a new job in a company of this size.

Speaker 1: 4:24

Yes, so what was it born out of? Why do you think Novo Nordisk prioritized to actually build a team like this?

Speaker 2: 4:31

Yes, In my experience, I think it's based from the growth that they've seen.

Speaker 2: 4:38

So it's actually really impressive to see, you know, prior to the substantial growth you've seen in the last three or four years.

Speaker 2: 4:45

You know the company's 100 years. You've seen in the last three or four years you know the company's 100 years old, over 100 years old, and they've really always prioritized culture and focusing on their people. You know, in the whole history of the organization they have a really distinct set of very behavioral, focused values and our team, along with the whole company really, you know, takes that seriously and it's very much a part of the onboarding process, review processes, making sure that people see that. And I think, because the company has been around for so long and has always been, let's call it a more manageable size or a size where you can still theoretically know everyone in your department or even your office, and now, as that growth has happened, I think they've realized that we need to have that designated focus to make sure that, wherever you are, how long you've been with the team, that you still feel that kind of inherent culture that they want each person to feel.

Speaker 2: 5:38

So I think that's where, like, this dedicated focus came from. It very much has been there for the decades before too, but at least for our specific team, you know, being out there creating global guidance for individuals is, I think, a big part of that.

Speaker 1: 5:53

Wow, and then how do you do that?

Speaker 2: 5:55

How do?

Speaker 1: 5:56

you create that sense of belonging Because it's under high growth conditions. Like you said, some team members might not have been there for very long and might not know the culture as it was, and now they're shaping it as well, because there are additions to it. So what is your work like and how do you grasp it?

Speaker 2: 6:18

Yeah, it's a fair question and as a new joiner, I still ask myself that probably every day, because it's by far the biggest organization I've ever worked with. But it's great that I have a team that I work with and they're unbelievably supportive and help me to understand that. But as far as like how it gets done on a day-to-day basis, I think a big part of it is again from that more proactive approach. I shouldn't say more. It's just kind of what I've known since I've joined. I don't know how long it's felt this way. I shouldn't say more. It's just kind of what I've known since I've joined. I don't know how long it's felt this way, but it's very much.

Speaker 2: 6:50

I mean, even before I came into my first day, I was given some optional, you know, background videos. Very, you know, it was like watching a Netflix series around, like the history of the company, and it was very, very much focused on the culture and I really took that kind of to heart to see that this is a place that takes it seriously and in a role such as mine, obviously that's quite important to me. So how we do that as an organization and a team, you know of the size that we are with an organization of tens of thousands of people is very much through equipping leaders and managers to set their own teams up for success. And being ambassadors for the, the Novo Nordisk, you know values and way, so it is in that way of equipping others, whether it's through best practices, policies, through you know train, the trainer sessions. It is very much around that, sharing both knowledge and information, but also just being there to make sure people have everything they need to set their people up so.

Speaker 1: 7:45

So your experience was that a lot of it was already built before you joined this team, it sounds like because you did receive an onboarding video on history yes definitely so. You, as a thought leader within this field, are bringing something to the table, and what is that?

Speaker 2: 8:04

I think for me.

Speaker 1: 8:06

Why did they hire you? Why did they hire me? Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 2: 8:09

I'm from the Midwest in the US, so I don't like talking about myself too much that way.

Speaker 1: 8:13

But it's all good, all right.

Speaker 2: 8:14

No, no, no, it's good, it's a good challenge. I think what I can say that I bring is A I'm new. What I can say that I bring is A I'm new so it is an organization where, because it's a great place to work with a lot of opportunities, people have been there for decades. I bring experience. So I think, first and foremost, something that I bring is a new perspective, but also I have some experience. And why does?

Speaker 1: 8:35

that matter. New perspectives.

Speaker 2: 8:41

It's always good to be challenged, I think, and to have something that you don't take for granted, to hear a new idea or thought from the outside. I think it's always healthy. Yeah, I think so, yeah, and then I think something that I was fortunate enough to have now worked in a proper full onvozymes, now NovoNessus and now within like the actual corporate organization of Novo Nordisk. So it's kind of that combination of different. Then see how can you maybe take some learnings from that environment and transfer it into a larger organization like Novo Nordisk.

Speaker 1: 9:34

How do you intend to do that? What's your thoughts on that?

Speaker 2: 9:37

Yeah, I think one of the main things that we're focusing on is because, again, it is a large organization but every organization, regardless of how big you are, its teams right. So you have individuals and teams working together on projects. So great things only happen if there are new ideas or if people feel safe to have those ideas. So we're really focusing on you know the buzzword being like the innovation mindset. You know how can we make sure people feel comfortable to have ideas, to pursue ideas and are supported for those ideas, and that's very much something that traditionally comes from the startup scale up community. So it's something that I've experienced personally and I hope that continue to bring into this organization because you know it's relevant everywhere. You don't have to be you know three people bootstrapping it on your kitchen table to have that innovation mindset. It can be you know a large global organization that hopefully can have that as well.

Speaker 1: 10:28

And why does companies need an innovative mindset? I mean, you speak about it as if it's something that's valuable, which the two of us we can certainly agree that it's valuable which I the two of us we can certainly agree that it's valuable but maybe also what's needed is stability and something where, you know, novo Nordisk is growing like hell because they have a product that already works. Yes. So why innovate something new? What's all this about?

Speaker 2: 10:56

Yeah, what's it all about? I mean, there's different lenses you could look at through. So I think, first and foremost, it's exciting to think of something new. There is a lot of rewarding and wonderful things that can go through. As you said, maintaining, delivering, establishing, being a part, especially something within this field, where I always used to use the analogy when people were stressed on the team or myself was stressed was don't worry, we're not, you know, saving lives. But now you know that we can't really say that because the company does so. In that sense, you have that sense of purpose, which is always great. However, why innovate? To get back to your original question, why, you know, always pursue new things, and I think you know, first and foremost, it is allowing you to then reach more people, in this case, through, you know, the health solutions that we provide, but also just is kind of showing the result of that innovation.

Speaker 1: 12:10

So, yeah, so it's kind of like to sustain the innovative mindset that was maybe already there, but then, to give it some extra superpower. Yeah, yeah, to give it some extra superpower, yeah, yeah. So when you help the organization with high growth, what's your thinking around it? Where should one start? If anyone faced themselves with similar challenges like you in a high-growing organization, what's your best advice?

Speaker 2: 12:39

Yes Is. Focus is what I would say is do a few things really well and don't try to do everything just a little bit. It's really tempting, both in small task teams which I've experienced in mid-sized teams, large teams to try to do a lot of things, but you have to do a few things right, because in my experience what I've noticed is if you're trying to do a lot of different things, nothing quite gets done to the full extent, and I personally think that if you focus on a few key areas and get them done correctly, you can get much more impact. For that I kind of think of the analogy with my wife and I recently purchased a summer house and there's all sorts of little projects that we want to do.

Speaker 2: 13:20

Yes, but if we just say, okay, this weekend we're painting the kitchen then, we paint the kitchen, yeah, but if we say this weekend we're going to take care of the downstairs, then maybe we do one little thing over there, whatever, and you don't really see any impact or anything's done. So it's it's much better, in my opinion, to focus on a few things and do them right, or to have individuals each responsible for those areas, than to spread yourself too thin.

Speaker 1: 13:42

Yeah, and what do you focus on?

Speaker 2: 13:44

What do I focus on?

Speaker 2: 13:45

right now, and your team, in my team, yeah, we focus on a few key areas. It's largely around, again, culture and engagement. So, through the means of having our engagement surveys, the actual process of having an engagement survey in an organization of that size is no small feat. So just to make sure that people get it, they fill it in, they get the proper results, isn't of itself. It's a pretty big task. But then, of course, the most important thing is that people are having good dialogues and conversations off the back of those results. So we're supporting people with that Around the performance leadership piece that you know, feeling that they're in a position to set their people up for success. And again around the you know the modern, flexible ways of working as well. Those three key areas that we focus on as a team. Yeah, and we really look through it through the lens of how can we again have the biggest impact because it's a global team, you know to support as many people as possible through guidance and policies and procedures.

Speaker 1: 14:43

So there we have the headlines of your title which was Global. Solutions League Culture. Engagement and Performance. And you started out by talking about the. Oh, there was a bird flying into the window. Actually, that's crazy. That's never happened before. It survived.

Speaker 2: 15:00

It flew away at least yeah.

Speaker 1: 15:07

Wow, wow, it wasn't focused, or maybe it was very focused. That bird, anyhow, that was funny. Um, so let you. You said you started out with with with the three focus areas, and then you mentioned engagement first and and the engagement surveys. Can you tell us a little bit more about what is an engagement survey? For those who might not know that much about engagement surveys. Of course and why engagement surveys.

Speaker 2: 15:31

I mentioned that first because that's one of my like focus areas, both in this role and like in my history in this field. I actually started in this field when I was working in the UK as a consultant and we largely worked in the survey space, and then it's very much. There's a couple big providers that would provide surveys, but then it's also around you know how do you use that data to have an impact? So people who aren't familiar with it, you know, I'm sure most people who've had a job in some sort of setting have either been asked by their manager or actually received a survey asking them questions about their work, their working environment, how things are going for them.

Speaker 1: 16:08

Yes.

Speaker 2: 16:09

And that's what we would traditionally call an engagement survey. And then what our team or teams I've worked on in the past are there to do is help them support managers, employees, everyone who's involved with this to actually get some meaning from the gift, really, of their feedback. So when you're actually getting this feedback yes, people want to score. We call an engagement score. You know something that's usually from an index of questions around are people happy to be there? Would they recommend it to a friend, things like that. And it is nice to have a goal and a number to shoot for. But really what's important is do people feel how you want them to feel? Do they feel supported within the organization? So an engagement survey is very much a tool to do that. It's the old adage if you don't measure it, it's really hard to have a goal or to progress towards it.

Speaker 2: 16:57

So that's very much what that space is about.

Speaker 1: 16:59

Okay, great. And what does a great engagement survey? Look like you know? Can you say anything about length or number of questions, or is it? Does it matter?

Speaker 2: 17:09

I've encountered probably every different type and frequency and size and it sounds kind of trite, but it really is about what you do with it. Some organizations will do it once a year, some will do two or three times a year. I've even seen a few that have done it every day. I've seen one organization that's literally asked her people in the morning. You know, what animal do you feel like today?

Speaker 2: 17:30

Now what do you do with that data? I have no idea, but if it's something useful, I don't know, like, why are you a frog today? I don't know, I feel like hopping. Yeah, it's what you do with it.

Speaker 1: 17:42

So actually you say it's actually fine to ask that question if you do something meaningful with it. Yes, absolutely yeah.

Speaker 2: 17:48

And that should always be the thought when designing a survey or a question or anything. The thought I always have is what can we do with the answer from this?

Speaker 1: 17:55

Yes, yeah, and also equipping the managers with the ability to do something with it, so you might be able to get something out of asking that question. But will they too? Right, right? So do you ask about that every day?

Speaker 2: 18:08

Yeah, the animal thing, the animal thing. No, currently that's not something we ask. Maybe in the future, who knows? It's not something we currently ask, but it is a fair point. And then, of course, how often do you? Um? Yeah, we currently have like a main survey that we use that like consistently measures for everyone, and then also have kind of like a an always on pulsing tool that people can use to measure the engagement of their teams, you know, throughout the year as well.

Speaker 1: 18:34

And throughout the year? Is that four times, or it's really up to them as far as that with that with that supporting one.

Speaker 2: 18:40

But as an organization we have a big annual survey. That's. You know, it's kind of like an event, so people get really excited about it. It's really cool. No matter where you are in the organization, people know about that measurement and how we use that as a team, Um, and that really drives forward like some big key focus areas for us as an organization. Based off the back of those results, we have a really, really high response rates. People really like, I think, see the impact from it. That's the most important thing.

Speaker 1: 19:06

But then, yeah, there's a lot of other ways too that that can be tracked throughout the year okay, yeah, and and do you see a big discrepancy between how often then the managers do use those tools? Some use it more often than others, and is that happening?

Speaker 2: 19:24

It's one factor, but again, the end of the day is number one do you actually have a conversation? So, does a manager actually show their team the results and give them a chance to provide their context for what they're seeing there? That's by far the number one thing you can track to engage teams is have you actually had that conversation? Yes, next big step did you do something with that? Yeah, that's the next thing. So, whether that's through following up surveys or through just talking to your team one-on-one or as a group, just actually doing that is what we can see by far has the biggest impact on the level of engagement in teams.

Speaker 1: 20:01

All right, that follow through. Yeah, okay. And then it doesn't really matter whether it's once a year or four times a year. What matters is what they do with it and how they engage.

Speaker 2: 20:10

Yeah, I mean as far as getting the data. There's pros and cons to both. You know getting the measurements over a period of time versus at one snapshot in time. But if you're still having that conversation with your team, if you're still hearing from them, you know, is this relevant? Are we progressing? Are we still focusing on the right things?

Speaker 2: 20:29

You know, because there's always an excuse. You can do the survey whatever, let's say through this two week period, and then by the time the results are out, it's a new manager. The team has changed that. One person who always complained had left, so this isn't really relevant. We shouldn't do it. No, there always is a reason to actually sit down, listen to what people are saying and action that feedback.

Speaker 1: 20:50

Absolutely, or do another survey. Yeah, you can do that too.

Speaker 2: 20:53

Yeah, that's why there's survey companies that are out there, you know that they love you to survey every day, but it's really what works best to drive the results.

Speaker 1: 21:01

Yes, all right, and then you talked about the performance part as well, so that's another structure or another setup.

Speaker 2: 21:08

Yes.

Speaker 1: 21:08

Yeah, why that one?

Speaker 2: 21:10

It goes back again. It's a theme that I'll keep saying to making sure people are having conversations. You know we're a large organization. We want managers to feel supported. They have, you know, the training and time to work on themselves as leaders, but also that they're helping their teams. So what we can do through the performance leadership lens is making sure that managers and leaders know what's out there or what are best practices to help with that.

Speaker 1: 21:37

Yes.

Speaker 2: 21:38

There's a lot there and people have their own styles and ways of doing things, but there are certain things that work and, again, keeping it simple, I find, is often the best thing you know. Focus on what works for you, have those conversations with your team, make sure you're actually listening to them, you know follow up and things will turn out well Okay.

Speaker 1: 21:59

It's a consistent that I've seen, regardless of where I worked so so there, how do you assess what needs the different managers have? So so you say there are tons of material out there tons of different kinds of training. They could do so. It sounds like you individualize it. Is that true? Or do you have like a, also a shared uh place where people can go and find the material and are expected to actually go through it?

Speaker 2: 22:24

yeah, there is like global ways and guidance to do these things, but, of course, wherever you are in the organization, you know people have the ability to personalize themselves. We're all individuals, you know how we do things.

Speaker 2: 22:37

It's not sitting there reading the script I don't think most people respond well to that but maybe some new manager, someone who's not you know how we do things it's not sitting there reading the script. I don't think most people respond well to that but maybe some new manager, someone who's not, you know, necessarily comfortable with that would like you know bullet points that they actually use.

Speaker 1: 22:49

Yes, it's what works best for you, but we do have global guidance and support for people to to have those conversations and can you, can you speak a little bit more about the sentence you just said about how can we get the best out of people? And you didn't say, or maybe you did say the most uh but what do you mean by that? Is that kind of like? Because an association to that could be that you know people show up for work and you just want to squeeze all everything out of them until they are, you know, completely drained and and but then at least you've gotten, you've gotten the best of them.

Speaker 1: 23:23

Uh, and then there's nothing left for the family once they get home or another association could be something else, so I don't know what. What's your take on that?

Speaker 2: 23:33

yeah, sentence well, it's definitely not the first suggestion I don't want to the idea of squeezing someone out song, but no, I think it is the best, not the most. I like that distinction because the two often follow quite closely. You know, if you feel like you're in an environment or that you have the support to do the best you can do, you know, in my opinion, by definition, you're going to want to do more of it. You know, it's that 1% kind of growth philosophy, like if you just do 1% more of something each day, you know after 365 days you've learned a new language or you've got a new skill and it's. It just takes that little bit more and I really think it's really fun.

Speaker 2: 24:13

I like that you said that, because it isn't just the most, it's the best. And again, that's not saying that you have to do your best every day, or every day you should feel like you've climbed a mountain or accomplished something big, but even just a little bit of something. It could literally be holding the door for a stranger on the street or waving to one of your colleagues at the office if you're there. Just those little things, I think, really contribute to overall, like both people's sense of personal and professional well-being. But then also like you know broader. You know, whatever it is that you're spending your time working on, that you're feeling, you know, somewhat fulfilled in that or that you're having a bigger impact than just on yourself.

Speaker 1: 24:52

So it's incremental change.

Speaker 2: 24:54

Yeah, yeah, I think so, yeah yeah, and I think it doesn't have to be. You know, for some people their work is very much how they identify themselves or their personality or how they get their sense of identity, and for some people it's a place that you go for however many hours a day and you do your job and you do it well, but then you come home and then you don't really think about that and I think it's good that you have both. I don't think people should feel this pressure to like have your whole sense of identity only in work, but you should still feel that best, that you can do something that is contributing to something beyond yourself.

Speaker 1: 25:32

I think is the key thing? Is this something new, this way of thinking about performance, Because in your title you have performance right and you set up the managers for success in terms of having the performance reviews with their people, but also with themselves, of course. So this whole idea of growth and development and maybe incremental learning, as well how does that fit in with what's happening in the world and what the needs of the world and what? What the needs of the world and the workforce?

Speaker 2: 26:05

yeah, it's a good point, like the. So, as far as like development and actually taking that conscious focus on it, um, I think it's twofold one. I think people are wanting more of that. You know, people want to see themselves grow in their career or learn their skills. The obvious one that comes to mind when thinking of development is technology.

Speaker 2: 26:31

So do you have the skills to know how to utilize modern technology to succeed in your job, or are there new things you can use that support you in your job? But as far as that focus on development and training, I think New Sure, probably, but it's more of a direct focus, I would say, than something that I think it's always been there that people like to see that they're improving. But nowadays, I think it's just both a desire of people as far as their professional lives, but also almost the need, with just the pace of change of technology and the way things are working and global networks change of the of technology and the way things are working and global networks it's there's just so many new things that are happening at pretty rapid paces that you do have to be pretty proactive to stay up on it okay, so, so do you carve out?

Speaker 1: 27:19

so a little bit back to maybe the curriculum or whatever materials you, you um, provide your leaders with yeah uh do. Do you have a take on that as well, when it comes to what you expect people to learn or familiarize themselves with in certain areas of the organization? I know that people do many different things in your company. Yes, absolutely yeah.

Speaker 2: 27:41

The one red thread everywhere is our fundamental culture and ways of working. So everyone knows what the Novo Nordisk way is. They know the values and behaviors and it's really important that that is the one red thread, regardless of where you are. That's the thing that we want to make sure that everyone is feeling and that those behaviors are reflected in how people do whatever it is that they're there to do. As you said, people are doing drastically different things across a very large organization, but there should still be that feeling.

Speaker 2: 28:12

How I've described it as a new joiner myself is you know it can be pretty overwhelming to come in and there's, you know, so many people and new faces and new names and people that might not be located in the same office or even country that you're working with, Um, but everyone has just felt warm and willing to help and very decent, and that goes a long way, you know, for my own personal experience of just feeling welcome within the team, and it's something that I've heard from others who have been there for a few years or for a few decades, that have described similar situations as something that's kept them there.

Speaker 2: 28:46

So it's good to hear that that's something that I've experienced. That is also clearly part of the the company itself.

Speaker 1: 28:53

Yeah, yeah yeah, and how? How do you? Because you're part of that team who is now responsible for making sure that everybody feels that way as a newcomer. Yeah, and, and is it through videos? Um, what kind of material do you give people to make sure that they understand what, what the expectancies are? In terms of behavior and ways of being with one another.

Speaker 2: 29:16

It is, yes, as far as using video, as far as using different guides or templates that can help people see how they can use that in their own place of work or place of business, regardless of what it is, and it's making sure you're being as inclusive as possible as well. So it's things as fundamentally as like languages. So if we're offering a guidance or a communication, we're making sure that it's in as many languages as possible that people can understand. That you know in the right way for them and you know it's making sure that things are in different formats so it's accessible for people, you know, regardless of how they're getting that information. But the biggest challenge, I would say when there is something of our size, is that people know where to go for that right thing.

Speaker 2: 30:01

So how do you get the answer to the question that you have If you're having a question around, okay, I'm a new manager, I'm having my first ever development conversation with someone on my team. What do I do? So I think a thing that we really focus on is making sure that it's clear to that new manager. Let's say where to go for that and how you can be helped with the resources that we're providing.

Speaker 2: 30:23

All right so it's that connection as well, and working with the communications teams to make sure that that's spread to as many people as possible.

Speaker 1: 30:30

Yes, okay, and why does that matter? And this might be a very weird question, especially for those who are already interested and know a lot about the culture and people and the HR space but why is engagement and tracking performance relevant in an organization of today?

Speaker 2: 30:53

Yeah, I think it's important. It's always been important. But to track it specifically is, again, to give that ability. To have a goal on something and to kind of give it a numeric value allows you then to work towards that. So when I was both a consultant or working in different organizations I've worked with, I've seen engagement and performance defined dozens of different ways, and that is good for being able to measure progress towards it or working towards it. It's also why there are hundreds, probably, of different ways that people measure culture metrics or engagement metrics. But what's important is that you have something. You have something that works for you, and if you don't define it, something else will happen on its own and it probably won't be what you want. So to actually define, okay, what does performance look like for us? What does good management look like for? Us.

Speaker 2: 31:46

What does engagement look like for us? Then you can identify and support examples of things that do and do not help you get towards that goal and it's always a goal it's always a goal. It's never. You're never going to reach nirvana, but you have to have it there to work towards and and in.

Speaker 1: 32:01

In your case, who decides what good performance and a great culture is? We all do everyone so who writes it down or who, I mean, it goes back?

Speaker 2: 32:13

beyond my time as to you know what the actual codified values of the organization are, but of course, just like the analogy with you know how engagement is what you write it. I'm sure I don't know, but I'm sure those values were still felt before they were written down.

Speaker 1: 32:29

Okay.

Speaker 2: 32:29

So they go back decades but really I'm sure they come from, hopefully, a place that was part of the organization even before they were in the text format that they are today.

Speaker 1: 32:40

Yeah, and then someone was just really deliberate in your case, writing it down or taking it to heart and making sure that people understood. This is important for us in terms of surviving and also innovating like we started out Okay.

Speaker 1: 32:56

So thank you. I want to take the last part of this conversation in maybe a slightly different direction, because I really want to hear a little bit about how your experience has been working in different kind of environments. So you've been in the startup environment, you've been within consultancy and now you're in a large corporation. Can you talk a little bit about what? What's the difference? And and uh, are there any similarities as well, or is it just completely different worlds?

Speaker 2: 33:26

yeah, no, it's. It's a good question and I would say with with those three, you know, because I actually, before I started working specifically in this field of you know organizational here to Denmark and working with a startup, to me, both the challenge and fun with that individual environment was that you know, obviously you're a smaller team, so you can't wait for someone to do something for you. You have to be proactive and you have to make it happen yourself. Of that corporate startup world that I had the job prior to that or, sorry, after that, that was still relevant. It was still a smaller team, but a bit more resource, because you still have that big, you know person behind you to support you and make sure that you have the resources that you need. But you do still very much need to be pretty much reliant on yourself to make sure that you're setting the agenda and you're getting things done too.

Speaker 2: 34:30

Now, in a larger organization, believe it or not, it's actually very much the same. So, yes, it's a bigger team and yes, it's more about how do we work with others to enable managers and leaders. So now, by definition, I can't sit down personally with every manager in our company and have a conversation with them. That just doesn't work, even if I flew to a different place every day of the year, but it's still about making sure that we have those tools out there for people and that if you do have an idea and if you do have a way that you think it can be done differently, that's still listened to and hopefully implemented if it's the right choice.

Speaker 2: 35:06

So that would be the similarity I would say Now, the difference is just again, just the ability to not or to be able to have those individual relationships with everyone in the company. That's clearly not possible when you're a company of tens of thousands of people, but it is very much part of, I would say, especially, that early stage startup time is that you really need those good relationships too and be able to rely on each other and trust each other really closely in those times but it also sounds like you fill up the role in a way that fits with who you are as a person.

Speaker 1: 35:36

Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think so.

Speaker 2: 35:38

I think that's really true. We did a exercise last week with my team where we went through our own personal values and one of them that came through for me was dialogue, and I really thought that was kind of an odd one. I'm like, why is that a value? But I really do value relationships with people and having those discussions with people and not really assuming anything, and I think, as you said, regardless of the company or the role that I've been in, I try to bring that through, that I hopefully am pretty transparent and real with people, but also just that I show that if I'm talking to someone or taking the time to be with them, that that's where I want to be and I want it to feel that way. I don't want to just feel like I'm checking boxes. I want an actual relationship, I want a discussion with people.

Speaker 2: 36:25

That's something that's really important to me and hopefully that people benefit from themselves as well.

Speaker 1: 36:31

So by knowing your own values and strengths and who you are and what makes you thrive and perform well you can align that then with the expectations of the company that you're in, but you can kind of like it sounds like you tweak it. So that it fits with you as well, and you don't just have to fit in, but you can also add something yeah it sounds like absolutely and I think very interesting absolutely.

Speaker 2: 36:56

I think that's kind of the dream right, that you can feel, that you can still. I mean, there's the classic question that people ask like, can you bring your whole self to work?

Speaker 2: 37:05

yeah and that means different things to different people. But for me, know, it means something as simple, as you know could be how you dress or how you talk, or how open you are about your personal life. You know, all of those different things are, you know, very unique and it can be different for everyone. But if you feel you can do that for you, it doesn't really matter the context you're in, it's just being able to do that, I think, is pretty great yeah and it's a treat to work in a industry or an area that helps other people, hopefully be able to do that themselves exactly, yeah, congratulations on that one

Speaker 1: 37:39

thank you, yeah so so just to sum up, um, is there anything you would like to add to this discussion? So we've been all over the place, kind of, in terms of your title around. You know culture, engagement, performance, but also bringing your whole self to work and making your own personality fit with the culture of the organization you're part of. Is there anywhere you feel that we should have talked about this or something we haven't touched upon today that you would like to add?

Speaker 2: 38:12

one that's totally different but maybe just relevant, because I've spoken with a few people who are either just getting into this field or recently graduating and thinking about the field. It's just kind of how to best navigate that time. Yeah, because for me personally you know I worked in a different field. You know I've worked forever, like since you know I worked in construction. I've worked the best job I've ever had in my life in high school working at blockbuster video. I paid to watch movies. It was fantastic, yes, it was uh, but then kind of pivoting after university and working a few years to go back and to study organizational behavior and then to get into this field.

Speaker 2: 38:51

You know how I did that and listening to other people who are trying to do the same thing or maybe are thinking that, and what I always tell people is A you know be pretty certain about like that area you want, does it require more formal study? If so, go for it, if you can do it. But also just talk to as many people as you can and don't always frame it as you needing something. Just meeting people, talking to people and hearing their stories is often a great way to learn more about what those different options are out there Because, as we started, there's so many different words and titles and phrases around it that it's hard to know. Like, what job do I even apply for? Or what is the field that's relevant for this? So, just putting yourself out there talking to people and not being afraid to ask to speak with people, and, again, not asking for anything, just to talk, and you never know, something might come from it.

Speaker 2: 39:45

That's not the express purpose why you should do it, but that's how things things work and it's great to just meet people and learn from them, and it is a community where, by definition, we care about people. So nine and a half out of ten people will say yes if you ask for a connection or just some time to talk to carve your way in.

Speaker 1: 40:04

Yeah, absolutely, yeah, definitely, all right, yeah, great. So what are you doing the rest of the day? What am I doing the rest of the day? What am I doing the rest of the day.

Speaker 2: 40:11

Yes, well, it's a Monday, so for the rest of today we'll meet with the team later in the afternoon because they're around the world and we go through kind of all the things we have on for the week and see how we can help each other if we need to or, you know, make sure that we're all good.

Speaker 1: 40:35

It's also the DHL rally, all right, yeah, that's a run for those of you who are not familiar with the Danish tradition of gathering companies around a run, five kilometers or 10 kilometers or something like that. I think it's just five. I hope you run five kilometers together with your team, and then you win as a team. That's kind of the DHL experience. Yes, awesome so. I wish you have a very great rest of your week and thank you so much, michael, for being here today with us. Thank, you, you too.

Speaker 1: 41:01

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